[CinCV TNG] Audio VST plugins

Glen MacArthur info at bandshed.net
Wed May 9 20:42:38 CEST 2018


Hi,

This is a very exciting development! I VERY MUCH regret time is short
these days and I can't build Cin right now but I have a lot of
experience building LV2 plugins, if these aren't already on your list
they are a VERY good collection for metering and EQ etc.
http://x42-plugins.com/x42/

I would strongly suggest  trying to have Cin work with existing LV2
plugins on a users system, this is how DAW's like Ardour, Mixbus,
BitWig, Qtractor etc all work, for the most part the plugins are not
bundled in the software, there are also numerous commercial top-notch
LV2 Audio plugins that also can be used. Bundling LV2 in Cinelerra you
will soon find that the plugins and UI components will soon be larger
than Cin itself.. On a typical Linux system standard PATH variables
for LV2 are /usr/lib/lv2 /usr/local/lib/lv2 and ~/.lv2. Another point
to mention is that there are literally hundreds of LV2 plugins, some
are studio grade, some are horribly buggy and some are virtual musical
instruments' and really not desirable for Audio work in a Video
context. I think initially the focus would be on Audio correction
(panning, balance, channel manipulation. denoising etc) and next
things like channel dynamics (Compressors, Limiters), Equalization and
then Spatial effects like Reverbs and Delays. There are also many LV2
Synthesizer plugins and such that would be a VERY limited use case
especially at first..

I don't know what I think about JACK Audio Connection kit and
Cinelerra... Paul Davis one of the original developers of JACK and
also of the Ardour DAW recently stepped aside from JACK development
and now favours Ardour working with ALSA backends. JACK is incredibly
powerful for interconnecting JACK aware applications but if Cin is
self contained with the LV2 plugins available internally (or picked up
from the users system) then there is a more limited use case for the
interconnectivity of JACK, however JACK could still be important for
syncing transport with other JACK aware apllications and Cinelerra.
JACK is currently the defacto standard for Linux Audio production but
it's added complexity over the years as 'yet another audio server' has
turned a lot of people off of Linux Audio as someone who has used and
distributed Linux Audio for more than 10 years I think JACK may be
entering the nadir of it's existence..

I don't know if you guys have an AV Linux install working anywhere but
there is pretty much every LV2 plugin currently worth knowing about
included in AV Linux and also an important LV2 plugin host called
'Carla' which (a) you can use to load up and look at existing LV2
plugins and (b) It can also be used to load other plugin types as in
Windows VST, Linux VST etc etc.

Check out the sections on Carla and working with WindowsVST plugins in
the AV Linux User Manual for some idea on how useful Carla LV2 as a
plugin host can be: http://bandshed.net/pdf/AVL2018UserManual.pdf

I would very strongly suggest asking some of the LV2 developers for
input on IRC channels like #lad #lv2 or try 'rgareus' on the #ardour
IRC channel (tell him 'avlinux' sent you). I would hate to see you
spend a lot of time in implementation and figuring things out and then
have to make big changes.

Very sorry to blurt and run but I didn't want to let this develop
without making some suggestions (which you are of course welcome to
take with a grain of salt)

Thanks so much for even attempting to look at Lv2 implementation, this
feature has been overlooked by all other Linux NLE's over the years
and it truly would set the already impressive features of Cin worlds
apart from all NLE's on all platforms!

You guys ARE THE BEST!!

Glen

----- Original Message -----
From:
 cinelerra at lists.cinelerra-cv.org

To:
<cinelerra at lists.cinelerra-cv.org>
Cc:

Sent:
Wed, 9 May 2018 08:35:56 -0600
Subject:
Re: [CinCV TNG] Audio VST plugins

Update on LV2 plugins for cin5 follows.

I noticed the following with the new Calf plugins. The parameter
windows of the Calf plugins are not resizable. 

This morning's GIT checkin fixed the resizing.

	Thanks for the explanation. I think Cinelerra will gain even more
popularity. Cinelerra has not had the best reputation in the past, but
the constant improvements have finally made it better known that it is
making a seriously positive development. Maybe this will lead to some
developers in the future. Especially when the new, more modern user
interface is ready. The new user interface looks really good.
Unfortunately it takes much longer than planned, because there are
extremely many pictures. 

That is indeed the problem -- trying to change the current user
interface OR hook up an interface that was developed over many years
can not be done in a short period of time. 

 I wouldn't develop a rudimentary GUI, that takes a lot of time again.
I might have a better suggestion. Especially for LV2 I would create an
interface to Jack Audio Server. This means to forward the audio output
from Cinelerra to Jack. I think that would work already, because in
the audio settings there is the option to send the audio output to
OSS. The Jack server can pick up this output and forward it to the
Calf plugins. By Calf Plugin I mean the external Calf Jack Host. I can
forward a Cinelerra audio track to the external Calf plugin and listen
to it. Change it with this external calf plugin. As far as I have seen
this external Calf plugin saves the values as XML file even with the
correct name of the respective Calf plugin, for example Calf
Compressor plugin. The Cinelerra Calf plugin could pick up these
values. I don't know if it would even be possible to directly
synchronize the Cinelerra Calf plugins with the external Calf plugins
via the Jack Audio Server. I would recommend creating an interface to
Jack in the future anyway. This gives us undreamt-of new opportunities
in the future. We could probably even connect Ardour about it. As an
example, each Cinelerra audio channel could optionally be opened as a
midi channel to the Jack server. This solution would have the
advantage to connect the plugins only with the external programs, thus
no own GUI's have to be programmed for the plugins. The Calf Jack Host
GUI looks absolutely great. 

Well, gg and I looked all over the internet for some way to hook up
the Calf GUI's to have the above capability, but to no avail.  So for
now we are tabling this effort with the hope that future ideas or help
arrives.  

 I can put the calf plugins on the audio track, but I can only enter
the values manually, without the graphical calf interface. Is it
possible to start the Calf interface? Especially the well-designed
Calf Studio interface makes working much easier. Some of these new
plugins are useless without a graphical interface.

Until some information/documentation becomes available, not going to
be able to do this.  But it took less than 1 hour to add a pot and
slider bar so that when you highlight a specific parameter, you can
change its value right away.  That works differently than the text
box where you have to key in a value and then press "apply" before it
takes effect.

The current code will be usable only by users who do their own builds
WITH the proper libraries (liblilv and Calf) are installed.  The
monthly builds will no have the option unless someone specifically
requests it with the idea that it is usable in the current form.

gg/Phyllis


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